THE Hoover Forum - Long Range Planning Meeting

googling Hoover Forum All-Star Member Proud Parent of a US Army Infantry Soldier Posts: 567	Long Range Planning Meeting 01/30/08 at 10:09pm There will be a Long Range Planning meeting at 12 noon on Thursday, 1/31/08.
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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #1 - 02/02/08 at 10:12am

The Committee met on Thursday at noon. Present were Tom Defnall, Suzy Baker, Pam Harris, Sammy Harris, William Billingsley, Gary McBay, Carol Barber, and Andy Craig.

The discussion once again centered around the "scenario" presented two weeks ago.

Tom Defnall raised many questions as to why old Berry would be reopened when we had just built the Freshman Campus to be used as a middle school eventually. He wanted to know why we couldn't just put 2400 middle school students into 2 middle schools: Bumpus and Simmons. Leave the Freshman Campus as it is (it has a capacity for 1000 students and currently serves 650).

The answer is this: in order to keep all of the elementaries that currently feed into Hoover High School feeding into Hoover High School, the western side of Hoover simply must have three middle schools. While it is possible to place 1200 students into a middle school, Bumpus would have to be added on to, and there is no room to add on to Bumpus. Also, some of Bumpus' kids would have to be shifted to Simmons eventually, leaving the elementaries currently feeding Bumpus wondering where their children might be going to middle school in a few years. Trace Crossings is the most likely candidate to move to Simmons, according to the discussion.

Under the two-middle school theory (Bumpus and Simmons being the middle schools, the Freshman Campus remaining a Freshman Campus), everyone would continue to feed into Hoover High, also, and the population at Hoover, in three grades, would grow to 2500 students at the end of 10 years. 850 students in each grade. Sorry, friends, but that's just not good for kids. It's entirely do-able, but not good for kids. Ask Bill Gates.

If we leave old Berry closed, or sell it to Shades Mountain Christian, the other option, of course, is to pull Green Valley and/or Bluff Park out of Simmons and move them to the new Berry and on to Spain Park. Judging by the reaction of the community 3 years ago, that did not appear to be a viable option. Perhaps the thinking has changed, though, and the Green Valley folks wouldn't mind moving to Berry and on to Spain Park. Any Green Valley folks out there want to share your opinion?

Also, what about Bluff Park? Would any Bluff Park families volunteer to move Bluff Park to the new Berry and on to Spain Park? There is certainly room at Spain Park for one elementary to contribute 200 students to Spain Park.

In lieu of volunteers (or forcing folks to move to the Spain Park High track), it is a simple truth that there must be three middle schools on the western side of Hoover. Moving to K-6 (to lower the "middle school" population) is not an option at most elementaries.

So, if you can't move an elementary currently feeding Hoover High's middle schools to feed Spain Park, and you can't (or I guess shouldn't is a better word) force 1200 students into a building (assuming perfect distribution among grades, too.....I see a constant, year-to-year re-drawing of middle school zones if that option was chosen), the only other option is to have three middle schools feeding Hoover High School.

In lieu of a third high school being started today to relieve over-crowding at Hoover High (2450 9-12th grade students, 1800 at the Senior Campus, 650 at the Freshman Campus), the 9th graders must stay separated from the Senior Campus (or so they've come to the conclusion that this is a viable and reasonable option for now).

So, if you convert the Freshman Campus to the middle school it was intended to be to relieve Bumpus' overcrowding, where do the freshmen go? Back to Hoover High School? With no land to build a third high school?

But, if you reopen Berry as a middle school and shift all of the Simmons students to old Berry, then that opens up the Simmons campus (which IS large enough with the additional 79 acres the city recently purchased next door to Simmons) to become the third high school.

This city needs three high schools. That this option is even on the table is amazing considering the Board's prior vehement opposal to making this a three-high-school town.

A third high school, even if you could find the land, starting from scratch, would cost in today's dollars about $75 million. There's no way this school system can afford it right now. We're still carrying the debt load from building all the buildings we've previously built to accomodate growth.

While I contend that we can't afford NOT to build that third high school, unfortunately the Board has been correct in stating that taking on that debt (even if we could find the land) would not be a good move for this school system right now.

This plan at least makes it possible for the school system to add on to Simmons to become that third high school. The third high school could be being built at Simmons around the 9th graders that would be housed there. That might be small consolation to folks whose children will be out of the system by the time that happens.

[I have no idea how the Simmons folks are going to feel about this. I think we'll find out on Monday night.]

I have heard the discussion of why not make old Berry the 9th grade building, or the third high school?

Making Berry the 9th grade building would mean that students from the Bumpus and Simmons (and the newest middle-school-converted-from-the-9th-grade-building) would all travel to the old Berry campus on Columbiana Road. I just can't see that happening. Lake Cyrus contains some very influential people that I can't believe would allow that.

I've been told (but not convinced) that the old Berry campus could not be converted to the third high school because the expectations of this community where a high school is concerned are higher than that campus could achieve. There are an awful lot of options for a third high school, and if school choice could be implemented based on programming (academies at only one of the three high schools---Law at Spain Park, Engineering at Hoover, Information Technology at the third high school---instead of duplicated at each, for instance, forcing families to make choices about their child's education versus going to school with their neighbors and friends), it might could work. But this community is absolutely convinced that their children MUST go to school with their neighbors, so I can't see that happening, either.

Given all that they have discussed (and the committee really has asked and answered all of these questions), the plan they have put on the table appears to be the best fit for leaving options for a third high school open and keeping students on their current high school track and not overcrowding the middle schools. Just my opinion.

Thoughts?

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BucStopsHere

Hoover Forum All-Star Member

Luke 12:2-3

Posts: 585

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #2 - 02/02/08 at 11:46am

There is one question that needs to be asked and answered before any decisions regarding schools, zoning, etc can be properly addressed:

Should schools with more students get more money allocated to them?

The obvious answer is "yes" as pro rata is the only fair way to put community money to work. Yet, our Board insists on splitting funds equally between SPHS and HHS. No wonder SPHS parents are happy. Spain Park is currently using what is rightfully HHS's money.

In the distant future we expect to grow to 4 MS's and 3 HS's, w/ 2 of those MS's feeding HHS. That would mean HHS would be the largest of the HS's and should receive a higher allocation to spend on teachers, coaches, programs, facilities, etc. This is the ONLY fair way of doing things - even down to the elementary level. Until a rule like this is firmly established, no fair resolution to the zoning question can be reached because some decision-makers will have motives to keep their "allegiance" schools small.

Fix the funding allocation first and then return to the discusion. That is the ONLY WAY to assure no one has other motives when voicing an opinion or casting a vote on this important matter.

So everyone can continue to yak on and on about what schools should be built to feed other schools, but the discussion will never be perceived as fair and equitable to all unless money follows headcount. This is not about making sure all HS's are treated equally. That's the wrong answer; they should be treated pro rata.

Only if you can show me an aggressive plan today where the HS's will attain equal student populations w/in the near future could I be convinced to continue subsidizing SPHS during the interim. Otherwise, stop stealing from HHS parents.

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aka_deplume

Hoover Forum All-Star Member

"Smug"

Posts: 1481

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #3 - 02/02/08 at 5:18pm

Quote from BucStopsHere on 02/02/08 at 11:46am:

There is one question that needs to be asked and answered before any decisions regarding schools, zoning, etc can be properly addressed:

Should schools with more students get more money allocated to them?

The obvious answer is "yes" as pro rata is the only fair way to put community money to work. Yet, our Board insists on splitting funds equally between SPHS and HHS. No wonder SPHS parents are happy. Spain Park is currently using what is rightfully HHS's money.

In the distant future we expect to grow to 4 MS's and 3 HS's, w/ 2 of those MS's feeding HHS. That would mean HHS would be the largest of the HS's and should receive a higher allocation to spend on teachers, coaches, programs, facilities, etc. This is the ONLY fair way of doing things - even down to the elementary level. Until a rule like this is firmly established, no fair resolution to the zoning question can be reached because some decision-makers will have motives to keep their "allegiance" schools small.

Fix the funding allocation first and then return to the discusion. That is the ONLY WAY to assure no one has other motives when voicing an opinion or casting a vote on this important matter.

So everyone can continue to yak on and on about what schools should be built to feed other schools, but the discussion will never be perceived as fair and equitable to all unless money follows headcount. This is not about making sure all HS's are treated equally. That's the wrong answer; they should be treated pro rata.

Only if you can show me an aggressive plan today where the HS's will attain equal student populations w/in the near future could I be convinced to continue subsidizing SPHS during the interim. Otherwise, stop stealing from HHS parents.

Hopefully our friends on the City Council read your post, which has a lot of truth in it.

This post exemplifies why we don't need parents of children currently attending any of our schools sitting on the Board of Education. No matter how "fair" a Board member says they will be, they will never shortchange the school their children attend. If you need an example of this, I refer you back to last month's BoE meeting and the subject of microscopes (for those not lucky enough to attend, new microscopes were being purchased for HHS and Mrs. Frazier wanted to know if SPHS was also getting new microscopes). Please keep this in mind when making your selection for the vacant spot.

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Bucsamillion

Hoover Forum Sophomore

THE Hoover Forum

Posts: 158
Gender: male

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #4 - 02/02/08 at 5:46pm

Quote from HSCIN on 02/02/08 at 10:12am:

The Committee met on Thursday at noon. Present were Tom Defnall, Suzy Baker, Pam Harris, Sammy Harris, William Billingsley, Gary McBay, Carol Barber, and Andy Craig.

The discussion once again centered around the "scenario" presented two weeks ago.

Tom Defnall raised many questions as to why old Berry would be reopened when we had just built the Freshman Campus to be used as a middle school eventually. He wanted to know why we couldn't just put 2400 middle school students into 2 middle schools: Bumpus and Simmons. Leave the Freshman Campus as it is (it has a capacity for 1000 students and currently serves 650).

The answer is this: in order to keep all of the elementaries that currently feed into Hoover High School feeding into Hoover High School, the western side of Hoover simply must have three middle schools. While it is possible to place 1200 students into a middle school, Bumpus would have to be added on to, and there is no room to add on to Bumpus. Also, some of Bumpus' kids would have to be shifted to Simmons eventually, leaving the elementaries currently feeding Bumpus wondering where their children might be going to middle school in a few years. Trace Crossings is the most likely candidate to move to Simmons, according to the discussion.

Under the two-middle school theory (Bumpus and Simmons being the middle schools, the Freshman Campus remaining a Freshman Campus), everyone would continue to feed into Hoover High, also, and the population at Hoover, in three grades, would grow to 2500 students at the end of 10 years. 850 students in each grade. Sorry, friends, but that's just not good for kids. It's entirely do-able, but not good for kids. Ask Bill Gates.

If we leave old Berry closed, or sell it to Shades Mountain Christian, the other option, of course, is to pull Green Valley and/or Bluff Park out of Simmons and move them to the new Berry and on to Spain Park. Judging by the reaction of the community 3 years ago, that did not appear to be a viable option. Perhaps the thinking has changed, though, and the Green Valley folks wouldn't mind moving to Berry and on to Spain Park. Any Green Valley folks out there want to share your opinion?

Also, what about Bluff Park? Would any Bluff Park families volunteer to move Bluff Park to the new Berry and on to Spain Park? There is certainly room at Spain Park for one elementary to contribute 200 students to Spain Park.

In lieu of volunteers (or forcing folks to move to the Spain Park High track), it is a simple truth that there must be three middle schools on the western side of Hoover. Moving to K-6 (to lower the "middle school" population) is not an option at most elementaries.

So, if you can't move an elementary currently feeding Hoover High's middle schools to feed Spain Park, and you can't (or I guess shouldn't is a better word) force 1200 students into a building (assuming perfect distribution among grades, too.....I see a constant, year-to-year re-drawing of middle school zones if that option was chosen), the only other option is to have three middle schools feeding Hoover High School.

In lieu of a third high school being started today to relieve over-crowding at Hoover High (2450 9-12th grade students, 1800 at the Senior Campus, 650 at the Freshman Campus), the 9th graders must stay separated from the Senior Campus (or so they've come to the conclusion that this is a viable and reasonable option for now).

So, if you convert the Freshman Campus to the middle school it was intended to be to relieve Bumpus' overcrowding, where do the freshmen go? Back to Hoover High School? With no land to build a third high school?

But, if you reopen Berry as a middle school and shift all of the Simmons students to old Berry, then that opens up the Simmons campus (which IS large enough with the additional 79 acres the city recently purchased next door to Simmons) to become the third high school.

This city needs three high schools. That this option is even on the table is amazing considering the Board's prior vehement opposal to making this a three-high-school town.

A third high school, even if you could find the land, starting from scratch, would cost in today's dollars about $75 million. There's no way this school system can afford it right now. We're still carrying the debt load from building all the buildings we've previously built to accomodate growth.

While I contend that we can't afford NOT to build that third high school, unfortunately the Board has been correct in stating that taking on that debt (even if we could find the land) would not be a good move for this school system right now.

This plan at least makes it possible for the school system to add on to Simmons to become that third high school. The third high school could be being built at Simmons around the 9th graders that would be housed there. That might be small consolation to folks whose children will be out of the system by the time that happens.

[I have no idea how the Simmons folks are going to feel about this. I think we'll find out on Monday night.]

I have heard the discussion of why not make old Berry the 9th grade building, or the third high school?

Making Berry the 9th grade building would mean that students from the Bumpus and Simmons (and the newest middle-school-converted-from-the-9th-grade-building) would all travel to the old Berry campus on Columbiana Road. I just can't see that happening. Lake Cyrus contains some very influential people that I can't believe would allow that.

I've been told (but not convinced) that the old Berry campus could not be converted to the third high school because the expectations of this community where a high school is concerned are higher than that campus could achieve. There are an awful lot of options for a third high school, and if school choice could be implemented based on programming (academies at only one of the three high schools---Law at Spain Park, Engineering at Hoover, Information Technology at the third high school---instead of duplicated at each, for instance, forcing families to make choices about their child's education versus going to school with their neighbors and friends), it might could work. But this community is absolutely convinced that their children MUST go to school with their neighbors, so I can't see that happening, either.

Given all that they have discussed (and the committee really has asked and answered all of these questions), the plan they have put on the table appears to be the best fit for leaving options for a third high school open and keeping students on their current high school track and not overcrowding the middle schools. Just my opinion.

Thoughts?

There has been constant griping and moaning on this forum about misplaced priorities and use of funds. The BOE, as stewards of our $$, need to remember where that $$ comes from and do their JOB!!!

New Berry MS and SPHS need to be filled to capacity before one $ is spent on any other project. Then build 3rd HS. This is just "I'm willing to pay more (taxes, etc) to get what I want so my little johnny is not affected". At some point we need to come to the grips that no matter what plan we put out there will be people unhappy. So why spend millions doing it? Green Valley, Bluff Park, etc. Why is their opinion or happiness more important than anyone elses?

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #5 - 02/02/08 at 8:38pm

Quote from Bucsamillion on 02/02/08 at 5:46pm:

There has been constant griping and moaning on this forum about misplaced priorities and use of funds. The BOE, as stewards of our $$, need to remember where that $$ comes from and do their JOB!!!

New Berry MS and SPHS need to be filled to capacity before one $ is spent on any other project. Then build 3rd HS. This is just "I'm willing to pay more (taxes, etc) to get what I want so my little johnny is not affected". At some point we need to come to the grips that no matter what plan we put out there will be people unhappy. So why spend millions doing it? Green Valley, Bluff Park, etc. Why is their opinion or happiness more important than anyone elses?

Bucs, I really wish you had been at the meetings. You missed them work through the details. It is way too easy for you to throw these words out there, but you haven't heard the rationale.

New Berry MS is filled to capacity. SPHS is technically 320 students shy of capacity. That translates to about 200 actual bodies. One elementary school's worth. But New Berry is full. Should we cram some kids into new Berry just to feed Spain Park?

Reality check.

Shift Green Valley to Spain Park. Voila. Time to build the third high school! But that won't happen. This Board will not spend $75 million (nor do they have the resources currently) to build the third high school.

So all the pretty buildings get filled and the kids are crammed wall-to-wall. Hooray....what a great school system cause all the pretty buildings are filled.

Sorry. You struck a nerve.

The plan Mr. Craig laid out is the most fiscally responsible and student-responsible plan I've seen to date.

I'm not sure you understand the problem that comes with trying to constantly even out attendance zones through geographical zoning. I suppose we could copy Atlanta's school system and redraw attendance zones every year. How would our community feel about that?

Unfortunately, moving one elementary school to Spain Park (still not sure where they'd fit for middle school) and moving Trace Crossings to Simmons won't be anything more than a Band-Aid fix. There will still be a need for real long-term planning. That's what this Committee has been engaging in. A real live 5- to 10-year plan.

Bucs, I hope you'll make yourself available for the remaining Committee meetings so you can hear for yourself why spending a few million now (to renovate old Berry and fix Simmons up as the ninth grade building) can keep the Board from spending tens of millions of dollars in the near future to accomodate the growth on the western side of Hoover.

2,000 homes have been approved already for south of the Met. There's room for 2,000 more. Where will their children go to middle school? Where will their children go to high school?

This plan is an actual long-term plan, not the traditional Band-Aid fix that we've grown accustomed to. You're right, no plan will ever make everyone happy. But once you see the rationale for this plan and how it truly is the most fiscally responsible while still being student-responsible, you might just see why it makes good sense.

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pink-floyd

Hoover Forum Rookie

THE Hoover Forum

Posts: 10

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #6 - 02/02/08 at 10:40pm

I have an idea. I will say up front that I'm sure there are issues and ramifications that I haven't worked out, but it's got to start somewhere. Transportation is one. Zoning is another (sort of).

Bring back Berry High School as the third high school in Hoover.

Make it a magnet school.

It will have the core curriculum for students who live nearby and are "just going to high school".

After that, any student that wishes to attend it will be allowed (up to max capacity, of course).

It will not have a football program. Smaller participation sports like basketball, soccer, track, etc. will be offered.
Students in the Berry "zone" that want to attend HHS or SPHS (for football or anything else) can do so. It will open spots for more transfer students.

It will have an expanded music program, arts program, math, science, etc. Not to the level of what I understand as the "academies", but things that are different.

Alternate schedule: Since some unique programs might be available at this school, and students that do attend HHS and SPHS might be interested, make the school day 10-5 instead of 8-3. Students from HHS and SPHS could attend after their regular hours. It's extra effort, but it's their option. (9:30 - 4:30, whatever)

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #7 - 02/02/08 at 11:13pm

Great ideas, pink floyd. Take a look at the survey the HSCIN conducted last year, http://www.hscin.org/Survey%20Results/BerrySurveyResults.pdf

Lots of folks had lots of great ideas for the campus. I remember in 2004 when Dr. Joe Dean asked the packed Board room "who would like to see the Berry campus used for something innovative like a medical/health occupations or other technical school?" Only two of us raised our hands. It dawned on me that this community isn't quite ready for something like that. It's great to see more and more folks thinking like this, though.

Please let me say very clearly that the HSCIN is not endorsing any particular plan, nor am I. Those who know me know I like to put information out there to draw others into the discussion. Please know that this is my intention by discussing it on this forum. I will say, though, that I am extremely pleased to see the committee doing the work that is required by the Hoover School Policy Manual, http://www.hscin.org/Hoover%20School%20Policy/LongRangePlanningPolicy.pdf

Interesting discussion.

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Bucsamillion

Hoover Forum Sophomore

THE Hoover Forum

Posts: 158
Gender: male

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #8 - 02/03/08 at 9:55am

Quote from HSCIN on 02/02/08 at 8:38pm:

Quote from Bucsamillion on 02/02/08 at 5:46pm:

There has been constant griping and moaning on this forum about misplaced priorities and use of funds. The BOE, as stewards of our $$, need to remember where that $$ comes from and do their JOB!!!

New Berry MS and SPHS need to be filled to capacity before one $ is spent on any other project. Then build 3rd HS. This is just "I'm willing to pay more (taxes, etc) to get what I want so my little johnny is not affected". At some point we need to come to the grips that no matter what plan we put out there will be people unhappy. So why spend millions doing it? Green Valley, Bluff Park, etc. Why is their opinion or happiness more important than anyone elses?

Bucs, I really wish you had been at the meetings. You missed them work through the details. It is way too easy for you to throw these words out there, but you haven't heard the rationale.

New Berry MS is filled to capacity. SPHS is technically 320 students shy of capacity. That translates to about 200 actual bodies. One elementary school's worth. But New Berry is full. Should we cram some kids into new Berry just to feed Spain Park?

Reality check.

Shift Green Valley to Spain Park. Voila. Time to build the third high school! But that won't happen. This Board will not spend $75 million (nor do they have the resources currently) to build the third high school.

So all the pretty buildings get filled and the kids are crammed wall-to-wall. Hooray....what a great school system cause all the pretty buildings are filled.

Sorry. You struck a nerve.

The plan Mr. Craig laid out is the most fiscally responsible and student-responsible plan I've seen to date.

I'm not sure you understand the problem that comes with trying to constantly even out attendance zones through geographical zoning. I suppose we could copy Atlanta's school system and redraw attendance zones every year. How would our community feel about that?

Unfortunately, moving one elementary school to Spain Park (still not sure where they'd fit for middle school) and moving Trace Crossings to Simmons won't be anything more than a Band-Aid fix. There will still be a need for real long-term planning. That's what this Committee has been engaging in. A real live 5- to 10-year plan.

Bucs, I hope you'll make yourself available for the remaining Committee meetings so you can hear for yourself why spending a few million now (to renovate old Berry and fix Simmons up as the ninth grade building) can keep the Board from spending tens of millions of dollars in the near future to accomodate the growth on the western side of Hoover.

2,000 homes have been approved already for south of the Met. There's room for 2,000 more. Where will their children go to middle school? Where will their children go to high school?

This plan is an actual long-term plan, not the traditional Band-Aid fix that we've grown accustomed to. You're right, no plan will ever make everyone happy. But once you see the rationale for this plan and how it truly is the most fiscally responsible while still being student-responsible, you might just see why it makes good sense.

I'll give you your due on all those points. My original assumption was that (like SPHS) Berry Middle was NOT at capacity as I thought I had read on these forums. Frankly it irks me to read posts where SPHS has capacity but the "parents" (like a couple of our BOE members?) like it the size it is. An easy way to increase enrollment over there would be to simply zone more apartments that direction.

My other question is what is the timing of all these planned developments behind the Met? With the housing market and general economy, has this timetable slowed down?

While I realize the financial issues, I believe a 3rd high school is inevitable and is appropriate now. I am concerned that by the time that is grasped, it will cost $100 million instead of $75 mil and in the meantime we will have spend additional funds on what turns out to be a band aid approach.
I don't think Berry is a viable candidate as a 3rd HS but we either need to use it or sell it. I can't imagine that we can't figure out the recreational fields part of it. Ironically, if it was sold to SMCS you might see some significant numbers moving there from the Hoover system and then force the BOE to look at it this whole thing again as that might legitimately delay the need for a 3rd HS.

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hoover1990 Hoover Forum All-Star Member THE Hoover Forum Posts: 435 Gender:	Re: Long Range Planning Meeting Reply #9 - 02/03/08 at 4:49pm I think the capacity at Berry is 1400, so I don't believe they are full yet.
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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #10 - 02/04/08 at 9:18am

Bucs, you say: "My other question is what is the timing of all these planned developments behind the Met? With the housing market and general economy, has this timetable slowed down?

While I realize the financial issues, I believe a 3rd high school is inevitable and is appropriate now. I am concerned that by the time that is grasped, it will cost $100 million instead of $75 mil and in the meantime we will have spend additional funds on what turns out to be a band aid approach.

I don't think Berry is a viable candidate as a 3rd HS but we either need to use it or sell it. I can't imagine that we can't figure out the recreational fields part of it. Ironically, if it was sold to SMCS you might see some significant numbers moving there from the Hoover system and then force the BOE to look at it this whole thing again as that might legitimately delay the need for a 3rd HS."

The timing of the developments was discussed. The trend in housing was discussed as well. It is still believed that the houses south of the Met (2,000 already being approved) will continue and Ross Bridge is also being built out at a quicker pace than school officials expected (or so they say).

I'm with you on the third high school thing. I just don't believe we can take on the debt right now and maintain the level of excellence expected (and desired) in our classrooms. School finances are a weird thing. We're trying to make heads and tails out of it ourselves, and created this page to try and inform our school community: http://www.hscin.org/FinancialInfo.htm

And yes, I'm with you on the kids moving to Shades Mountain Christian thing, too. I believe we'd lose a lot of kids if SMC bought and opened the old Berry campus. The problem with the SMC offer is that it's too low, at $6.5 million. It would cost $35 to $40 million to replace the middle school capacity lost by selling Berry.

If the Board had voted to sell it when the price was $13.5 million in May of 2006, we wouldn't be having this discussion. But they didn't. Remember how they wanted a full appraisal of the property? Well, the appraisal came in at a little more than $10 million. I think we've lost the opportunity to sell Berry at a reasonable price that's acceptable to both parties.

And I'm curious as to why you believe this approach is a Band-Aid. It actually accomodates all the growth on the western side of Hoover for the next 10 years. And here's the cost:

$3 million to renovate old Berry to reopen as a middle school
$2 million to renovate Simmons into a Freshman Campus ("very soft" numbers according to Andy)
$15 million for Elementary School #11 south of the Met (approximately 5 or 6 years from now)

Gary McBay is getting numbers on what it would cost to actually build the third high school on the Simmons campus.

Voila. All of the capacity for the entire build out of land already in Hoover is accounted for, theoretically, under this plan, at a cost of $20 million (with the new elementary school that is inevitable) plus the renovations/additions to the Simmons campus, spread out over 6 to 9 years as opposed to issuing $80 million in debt for a third high school (where would it be built if not on the Simmons campus?) plus the $15 million for the next elementary school. The sale of Berry will only offset $6.5 million of debt. Take a look at our current debt load (something I'm only now coming to understand), and you'll understand why they're not anxious to take on $80 million in debt.

With local funding continuing to decline as a percentage of our total funding (a very bad trend for our school system....but that's another thread), I personally can't see us affording that third high school without another possible property tax increase. Do you think the Hoover community will support a property tax increase to build a third high school? (I'd really like your thoughts on that one.)

Mr. Craig expects student population to cap out around 15,600 students, with 4,600 students counted as high school students.

Without the third high school, with Spain Park holding around 1,450 (slow to little growth is expected on the eastern side of Hoover), that leaves 3,150 students for Hoover High school to manage. About 800 in each grade. So the Hoover High campus goes back to 2,400 students, but that's only in 10th through 12th grades. Opportunities for leadership and athletic teams (kids actually playing on the court or the field) go to next to nothing per child.

1990, it is my understanding that the old Berry campus holds 1,400 students, but not the new campus. I'm trying to confirm that capacity now. I misstated that Berry was full. But they do have 1,100 students right now. Leaving capacity for 300 (crammed wall-to-wall) if the 1,400 number is right. That's one small elementary school's worth, like Bluff Park or Green Valley. But, again, that's crammed wall to wall, and assumes perfect distribution among grades.

Again, no plan is perfect. Personally, I'd like to see that third high school's groundbreaking tomorrow, but with the current Board and the current financial climate, I just can't see it happening right now.

It will be very telling of this community's commitment to each other to see how this plan goes over. Will the Simmons community be willing to make the sacrifice now for the long-term plan of the third high school? Will an alternate plan emerge? Will Green Valley be zoned to Spain Park after all?

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BucStopsHere

Hoover Forum All-Star Member

Luke 12:2-3

Posts: 585

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #11 - 02/04/08 at 10:14am

I don't have the numbers in front of me so know idea if this is feasible, but it could be very appealing if the numbers work. Can someone crunch them?

Keep Hoover freshmen at current location (FC). They need to be next door to the HS. Bumpus is the most crowded MS. There is excess capacity at the FC - temporarily move the Bumpus 8th graders to the FC. In effect it becomes a Jr High (but w/out Simmons 8th graders - they will join in 9th).

When a 3rd MS is ready (old Berry renovated) rezone MS's and move 8th graders back to Bumpus.

Then, alleviate overcrowding at HHS by moving some 10th grade classes to available space at the FC.

This would be a cheaper solution than that on the table. No reason to ever renovate Simmons to function as a FC, so this immediately cuts out $2M.

Expansion efforts could be focused on the existing FC. Perhaps long-term this could become a 9-10th grade facility and HHS could serve 11-12th? No new HS would be needed under this plan (just some creative scheduling and continuous shuttle service).

Thoughts?

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slab

Hoover Forum JV

THE Hoover Forum

Posts: 339

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #12 - 02/04/08 at 1:53pm

Quote from BucStopsHere on 02/04/08 at 10:14am:

I don't have the numbers in front of me so know idea if this is feasible, but it could be very appealing if the numbers work. Can someone crunch them?

Keep Hoover freshmen at current location (FC). They need to be next door to the HS. Bumpus is the most crowded MS. There is excess capacity at the FC - temporarily move the Bumpus 8th graders to the FC. In effect it becomes a Jr High (but w/out Simmons 8th graders - they will join in 9th).

When a 3rd MS is ready (old Berry renovated) rezone MS's and move 8th graders back to Bumpus.

Then, alleviate overcrowding at HHS by moving some 10th grade classes to available space at the FC.

This would be a cheaper solution than that on the table. No reason to ever renovate Simmons to function as a FC, so this immediately cuts out $2M.

Expansion efforts could be focused on the existing FC. Perhaps long-term this could become a 9-10th grade facility and HHS could serve 11-12th? No new HS would be needed under this plan (just some creative scheduling and continuous shuttle service).

Thoughts?

I too have questioned why the traditional grade splits at the various schools could not be changed. I certainly think this is something that should be examined.

Overall the plan makes sense to me with one exception, why is there a need to "renovate" SMS for use as a Freshman Center? I would think it could almost be used as it exists for this use, can anyone explain this one to me?

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #13 - 02/04/08 at 2:14pm

Quote from BucStopsHere on 02/04/08 at 10:14am:

I don't have the numbers in front of me so know idea if this is feasible, but it could be very appealing if the numbers work. Can someone crunch them?

Keep Hoover freshmen at current location (FC). They need to be next door to the HS. Bumpus is the most crowded MS. There is excess capacity at the FC - temporarily move the Bumpus 8th graders to the FC. In effect it becomes a Jr High (but w/out Simmons 8th graders - they will join in 9th).

When a 3rd MS is ready (old Berry renovated) rezone MS's and move 8th graders back to Bumpus.

Then, alleviate overcrowding at HHS by moving some 10th grade classes to available space at the FC.

This would be a cheaper solution than that on the table. No reason to ever renovate Simmons to function as a FC, so this immediately cuts out $2M.

Expansion efforts could be focused on the existing FC. Perhaps long-term this could become a 9-10th grade facility and HHS could serve 11-12th? No new HS would be needed under this plan (just some creative scheduling and continuous shuttle service).

Thoughts?

Your plan deserves points for creativity, but all of that has been considered and determined not to be feasible. The 8th graders from Bumpus, the 9th and 10th grade building. Personally I think the 9th and 10th grade building is a lousy idea for students. Great for buildings. Great for cattle herding, but not for students. The current FC is not big enough for 9th and 10th graders. The athletic facilities are built for middle schoolers, not high schoolers.

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #14 - 02/04/08 at 2:17pm

How about this?

Rezone GV to new Berry and Spain Park.

Rezone Trace Crossings to Simmons.

When Hoover High nears capacity again, rezone Bluff Park to new Berry and Spain Park (Berry will have to be added onto). Or let Bluff Park go to Simmons for middle school, then on to Spain Park for high school. No renovations necessary anywhere. Gwin could on to Spain Park, too, at that point. That should fill up Spain Park.

Trace Crossings (having been rezoned to Simmons) could track through Simmons then back to Hoover High.

The end. No additions. No renovations. No third high school.

Thoughts?

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aka_deplume

Hoover Forum All-Star Member

"Smug"

Posts: 1481

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #15 - 02/04/08 at 2:32pm

Quote from HSCIN on 02/04/08 at 2:17pm:

How about this?

Rezone GV to new Berry and Spain Park.

Rezone Trace Crossings to Simmons.

When Hoover High nears capacity again, rezone Bluff Park to new Berry and Spain Park (Berry will have to be added onto). Or let Bluff Park go to Simmons for middle school, then on to Spain Park for high school. No renovations necessary anywhere. Gwin could on to Spain Park, too, at that point. That should fill up Spain Park.

Trace Crossings (having been rezoned to Simmons) could track through Simmons then back to Hoover High.

The end. No additions. No renovations. No third high school.

Thoughts?

Makes too much sense, which means McBay won't like it. And if he doesn't like something, he will find a way to defeat it.

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"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles."
Sun Tsu, The Art of War

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #16 - 02/04/08 at 3:27pm

I've discovered that the new Berry has capacity for 1200 students. Almost 1100 are there now. That doesn't leave room for Green Valley or Bluff Park.

So, how about this? Tom Defnall suggested keeping only two middle schools to feed Hoover High. He didn't see a problem with having two 1200-student middle schools. So......

Keep all of the Simmons feeders where they are. Add Trace Crossings to Simmons. That would raise the population from 800 to 1100. Simmons has capacity for 1400.

Stay with me here. Moving Trace Crossings might throw off the demographic balance a bit, so pull some Deer Valley kids (the ones who are from Ross Bridge who are currently zoned to Simmons don't amount to many....10 this year, I think). Maybe pull all of Deer Valley. Yes, that would add 300 more students to Simmons. So Simmons is now at capacity, with 1400.

Let the Green Valley kids go from Simmons to Spain Park, not Hoover. That pulls 280 kids out of Hoover, 210 from the Senior Campus, 70 from the Freshman Campus.

Bumpus' population has been reduced from 1100 to 500, leaving plenty of room for growth below the Met. (On second thought, no need to move Deer Valley until those houses start selling below the Met.)

OK, so Simmons is at 1100, Berry is at 1100 and Bumpus is at 800 (their capacity is only 1100).

Spain Park moves to 1730, Hoover High moves down to 2120, 1500 at the Senior Campus, 620 or so at the Freshman Campus. Are you following me? Spain Park gets BIGGER! Capacity at Spain Park is 1700, but hey, if overcrowding is good enough for Hoover High, it's certainly good enough for Spain Park, right? And then, technically, Hoover High could move back into the Senior Campus as a 9-12 grade school with 2120 students, 80 below capacity.

Then the Freshman Campus could be opened as the middle school and everybody could shift back to Hoover High....except for Green Valley, of course. Then we'd have 1900 students for three middle schools....650 or so at each. But new Berry would still be at 1100, so we should probably shift some back to make the numbers fairer. Yes, the kids at Berry could go to Simmons for middle school, but shift back to Spain Park for high school.

Wait! There's more!

Think of just splitting Simmons in half....half go to Hoover High and half go to Spain Park. Maybe Shades Mountain could come back to Simmons (remember there's room now because the Freshman Campus is no longer a Freshman Campus, but a middle school with 650 kids), and Shades Mountain and Green Valley and maybe half of Bluff Park could go to Spain Park for high school!

We're almost there, at the Magic Number where everybody is equal.

Let's not forget Deer Valley is overcrowded. Well, let's move some of them to Gwin! Gwin only has 580 kids, 90 below capacity. So pick a neighborhood and move them! They'll still get to go to Simmons and on to the Freshman Campus (in its current location) and on to Hoover High, so only their elementary track is shifted. They shouldn't have a problem with going to Gwin. Their neighbors do.

So what did we accomplish? All of the numbers look better now!

The only neighborhoods that are originally moved off of their high school track are the Green Valley kids, but they get to stay with their friends from elementary to middle school. Then, of course, the Bluff Park kids (or half of them) would eventually go to Spain Park, too.

The only neighborhoods that would be originally be pulled to a different middle school are Trace Crossings and some of Deer Valley. Then Shades Mountain would move to Simmons, but still track to Spain Park for high school.

The only neighborhoods that would be pulled off of their elementary track are just a few kids in Deer Valley.

And best of all, we've got three middle schools at only 50 or 60% of capacity! And old Berry still sits vacant!

Not a penny additional would be spent. Not a single penny. A few families would be disrupted, but the numbers sure do look good, don't they?

Thoughts?

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BucStopsHere

Hoover Forum All-Star Member

Luke 12:2-3

Posts: 585

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #17 - 02/04/08 at 3:41pm

Quote from HSCIN on 02/04/08 at 2:17pm:

How about this?

Rezone GV to new Berry and Spain Park.

Rezone Trace Crossings to Simmons.

When Hoover High nears capacity again, rezone Bluff Park to new Berry and Spain Park (Berry will have to be added onto). Or let Bluff Park go to Simmons for middle school, then on to Spain Park for high school. No renovations necessary anywhere. Gwin could on to Spain Park, too, at that point. That should fill up Spain Park.

Trace Crossings (having been rezoned to Simmons) could track through Simmons then back to Hoover High.

The end. No additions. No renovations. No third high school.

Thoughts?

Your proposed plan could be a good one, or even the best. I simply don't have everything I need to evaluate it.

What I do know is this:

The plan selected should (1) minimize current and projected capital expenditures by utilizing existing facilities to the fullest extent possible, and (2) balance the projected student population so as not to over or under populate any school or grade moreso than any other.

Notice that the plan (as described by me) does not take into account zoning lines. Zones are dictated purely by the results of the optimal plan, not used as an input. Community input is nice, as is attempting to please as many people as possible. But, when it's all said and done, not everyone will be happy. The objective is to satisfy the greatest number of people, not all, and certainly not just the loudest or best connected. So realize this quickly and move on.

The issues, in order, are (a) agreeing on the proper projection horizon (10 years? this is driven by how often we envision possible rezoning being acceptable), (b) agreeing on the best guess at population shifts/growth within the city during this period, and then (c) considering all possible scenarios including yours. Based on the 2 parameters above, there will be only one obvious correct answer.

Taking these out of order, or attempting to protect a particular school and/or zone, will make this process frustrating for all, and we will not arrive at the optimal answer. Anyone who does not like the outcome can change it by suggesting a better plan, according to these same rules, but NOT by any other method. This is a purely quantitative exercise and good leaders should be detached so that they can handle it as such without passion or bias.

I hope that our capital planning committee can handle this process. There are professionals who do this stuff for a living and the process is second nature. Have we considered seeking their advice? (If not, is it for fear of not being able to dictate the outcome?) Our long term capital plan guidelines certainly contemplate seeking professional advice.

http://www.hscin.org/Hoover%20School%20Policy/LongRangePlanningPolicy.pdf

Good luck, and may the best plan win.

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Bucsamillion

Hoover Forum Sophomore

THE Hoover Forum

Posts: 158
Gender: male

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #18 - 02/04/08 at 4:27pm

Quote from HSCIN on 02/04/08 at 3:27pm:

I've discovered that the new Berry has capacity for 1200 students. Almost 1100 are there now. That doesn't leave room for Green Valley or Bluff Park.

So, how about this? Tom Defnall suggested keeping only two middle schools to feed Hoover High. He didn't see a problem with having two 1200-student middle schools. So......

Keep all of the Simmons feeders where they are. Add Trace Crossings to Simmons. That would raise the population from 800 to 1100. Simmons has capacity for 1400.

Stay with me here. Moving Trace Crossings might throw off the demographic balance a bit, so pull some Deer Valley kids (the ones who are from Ross Bridge who are currently zoned to Simmons don't amount to many....10 this year, I think). Maybe pull all of Deer Valley. Yes, that would add 300 more students to Simmons. So Simmons is now at capacity, with 1400.

Let the Green Valley kids go from Simmons to Spain Park, not Hoover. That pulls 280 kids out of Hoover, 210 from the Senior Campus, 70 from the Freshman Campus.

Bumpus' population has been reduced from 1100 to 500, leaving plenty of room for growth below the Met. (On second thought, no need to move Deer Valley until those houses start selling below the Met.)

OK, so Simmons is at 1100, Berry is at 1100 and Bumpus is at 800 (their capacity is only 1100).

Spain Park moves to 1730, Hoover High moves down to 2120, 1500 at the Senior Campus, 620 or so at the Freshman Campus. Are you following me? Spain Park gets BIGGER! Capacity at Spain Park is 1700, but hey, if overcrowding is good enough for Hoover High, it's certainly good enough for Spain Park, right? And then, technically, Hoover High could move back into the Senior Campus as a 9-12 grade school with 2120 students, 80 below capacity.

Then the Freshman Campus could be opened as the middle school and everybody could shift back to Hoover High....except for Green Valley, of course. Then we'd have 1900 students for three middle schools....650 or so at each. But new Berry would still be at 1100, so we should probably shift some back to make the numbers fairer. Yes, the kids at Berry could go to Simmons for middle school, but shift back to Spain Park for high school.

Wait! There's more!

Think of just splitting Simmons in half....half go to Hoover High and half go to Spain Park. Maybe Shades Mountain could come back to Simmons (remember there's room now because the Freshman Campus is no longer a Freshman Campus, but a middle school with 650 kids), and Shades Mountain and Green Valley and maybe half of Bluff Park could go to Spain Park for high school!

We're almost there, at the Magic Number where everybody is equal.

Let's not forget Deer Valley is overcrowded. Well, let's move some of them to Gwin! Gwin only has 580 kids, 90 below capacity. So pick a neighborhood and move them! They'll still get to go to Simmons and on to the Freshman Campus (in its current location) and on to Hoover High, so only their elementary track is shifted. They shouldn't have a problem with going to Gwin. Their neighbors do.

So what did we accomplish? All of the numbers look better now!

The only neighborhoods that are originally moved off of their high school track are the Green Valley kids, but they get to stay with their friends from elementary to middle school. Then, of course, the Bluff Park kids (or half of them) would eventually go to Spain Park, too.

The only neighborhoods that would be originally be pulled to a different middle school are Trace Crossings and some of Deer Valley. Then Shades Mountain would move to Simmons, but still track to Spain Park for high school.

The only neighborhoods that would be pulled off of their elementary track are just a few kids in Deer Valley.

And best of all, we've got three middle schools at only 50 or 60% of capacity! And old Berry still sits vacant!

Not a penny additional would be spent. Not a single penny. A few families would be disrupted, but the numbers sure do look good, don't they?

Thoughts?

Pretty complicated but both you and AKA are thinking creatively and as stewards of our cash. Can't see BOE (specifically DF and SB) buying off on this cause it will make the G'stone crowd unhappy.

They need to defend why it is NOT feasible. The "happiness" factor needs to be at the bottom of the list.

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HSCIN

Ex Member

Re: Long Range Planning Meeting
Reply #19 - 02/04/08 at 4:44pm

I was told my plan was confusing.

Here it is in better detail.

TO RELIEVE THE OVERCROWDING AT BUMPUS MIDDLE SCHOOL
At Simmons:
Green Valley - 280 students (Spain Park for high school)
Bluff Park - 275 (Hoover for high school)
Shades Mountain - 150 (Spain Park for high school)
TOTAL 705

At Bumpus (all would go on to Hoover High):
South Shades Crest - 350
Gwin - 300 (necessary to "even out the numbers")
TOTAL 650 (room for growth below the Met)

At Trace Crossings Middle School (the current Freshman Campus) (all would go on to Hoover High):
Trace Crossings - 275
Deer Valley - 400
TOTAL 675 (room for growth below the Met)

At Berry Middle School (all would go on to Spain Park):
Greystone - 330
Rocky Ridge - 280
Riverchase - 280
TOTAL 890

TO RELIEVE THE OVERCROWDING AT HOOVER HIGH SCHOOL AND ALLOW THE FRESHMEN TO REJOIN THE 10th THROUGH 12TH GRADERS SO THE FRESHMAN CAMPUS CAN BE USED AS A MIDDLE SCHOOL TO RELIEVE OVERCROWDING AT BUMPUS:
Because of rounding and imperfect grade distributions, these numbers are "very soft":

Spain Park High School:
Greystone - 440 students (this is 4 grades now, not three like middle school)
Rocky Ridge - 375
Riverchase - 375
Shades Mountain - 200
Green Valley - 375
TOTAL 1765 students (a bit over the 1700 capacity)

Hoover High School:
Trace Crossings - 365 students
South Shades Crest - 470
Deer Valley - 525
Gwin - 400
Bluff Park - 365

TOTAL 2125 students (a bit under the 2200 capacity) ----THANKS FOR CATCHING MY ERROR, BSH

OK. That's using this year's enrollment and projecting for 2008-2009.

Also, this assumes that we can just start using portables at the high schools, because growth in the high schools will continue. But we all grew up with portables, right? Under this plan, portables would need to be in place at the high school by the start of the 2008 school year. Bumpus' overcrowding would be relieved. Deer Valley's population shift to Gwin has not been accounted for in the above numbers, though, because I haven't seen a neighborhood map to know which Deer Valley neighborhoods are closest to the Gwin zone. Also, the freshmen would be reunited with the upperclassmen at Hoover High (my personal favorite).

And it didn't cost a penny. The portables will be necessary regardless unless we build a third high school. But that costs money.

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« Last Edit: 02/04/08 at 10:12pm by HSCIN »

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